(no subject)

[michiexile]

The friendly atheist posts about listening to a christian friend of his being particularily stupid about religions, repeatedly. She'd tell him she couldn't understand his non-belief, and she'd shrug off hindu belief systems as "just silly", and he'd sit through it all basically letting her run along knowing that nothing he'd say would change her mind.

The blog post ends with a question to any atheists reading it as to how they would have handled a similar situation, or their atheism in general.

This post is, in some way, an answer.

I am an atheist. Basically after a reductio argument: I see no influence whatsoever of any potential godlike entity on my worldview, and so I choose not to include that particular axiom. It's grown out of a high interest in religious beliefs in general and christian in particular, combined with an inquiring and highly mathematical mind. Not everyone would end up where I did, but I did.

This places me in a position where I am able to have rather well-articulated theological discussions (at least in the realm of christianity - my moslem, jewish, hindu, buddhist or shinto theology is extremely lacking, alas) with believers, something I enjoy every now and then. I know full well that they won't be able to change my mind, and that I most probably won't be able to change their minds; mainly because this is a matter of belief, and not of rational analysis of data.

Nevertheless, I am quite opposed to idiocy. Should I had sat in on the discussion that the Friendly Atheist describes, I would have argued at length that dismissing Allah, Adonai, Vishnu et.c. as being silly while claiming not to understand how anyone could choose not to be christian is insulting to a large majority of human kind while being extremely narrowminded and involving a misunderstanding of the rôle of religion.

Granted. It is a misunderstanding that has been present throughout history, and has laid ground to very many very bloody conflicts in the past. But the existence of religious wars is still in no way an excuse for such a display of intolerance among those I call friends.

If you tell me that you cannot understand how anyone could choose not to be christian even after having Heard The Word, I will at first argue with you, and if this does not help, I will mock you. If you tell me that Believing in the Christian God is the Only Rational Choice, and at the same time that Believing in Vishnu is silly and Believing in Adonai is misguided, I will mock you even more.

It is not your christianity that would trigger such a reaction. It is your idiocy.

Comments

[mnenyver.livejournal.com]

Popular Christian doctrine (I'm sure you're well aware) is full of fallacies. In order to maintain a popular church-supported belief in Christianity, one must suspend reason here or there, or be completely incapable of questioning in the first place. (I was in the former camp for a long time as an evangelical.) The constant suspension of disbelief, the constant encouragement of faith over reason in everything, and the dismissal of every other kind of faith as "silly" are exactly the sort of things that eventually lead me to question where I belonged.

My advice to the athiest would have been to consider the effect he wanted to have on his friend. If he wanted a lively debate, to get her to open up and question what she had said, he should have pursued that. There are great Christian apologists in the world who would love nothing better than to debate the existance of God, but they are extremely rare. From the way he described his friend, though, it sounds like he suspected she wasn't really up to the task and he was more likely to lose a friend than to have a great theological discussion. In the right context, silence in the interest of peace is okay, I think.

[michiexile]

My main problem with this argument is that it's applicable to more kinds of bigotry than just devaluing the beliefs of others. If it's ok to call Vishnu silly, what does this do to other perceivable differences between people? And once someone starts saying to my face things like in a recent CNN interview I saw linked and blogged - going on along the lines of "Well, I'm not racist, and I think it's great that somali-americans vote, and I really think it's great, but aren't you really our enemy" - or for that matter attacking gender, sexual preference or any other possible avenue for bigotry (hobbies being another coming to mind), I really do not see myself staying put and letting them go on being obnoxious idiots to keep the peace.

And I really do not see that much a difference between assuming straight off that My Religion Is The Only Sane Belief and assuming My Sexuality Is The Only Sane One, or My Hobbies Are The Only Sane Ones... And gods know I don't really enjoy hearing people blow off my mathematics interest, my geekery or my roleplaying. And if they do it to my face, I respond.

That said, responding can be done in a way that invites conflict, or in a way that disarms it. I'm not saying I believe everyone should pick a fight. But I don't believe in silence.

[michiexile]

And this comment, actually, excludes my behaviour when dealing with my future grandmother-in-law. But that's because my fiancee gets so sad if I tell her what I think...

[mnenyver.livejournal.com]

Heh heh. And yes, I agree. My point was that there are some people who cannot stand to be confronted with their own bigotry or racism. It will damage the relationship or end it. Which is fine by me in some cases. :D

You make a really good point, though. I think more Christians would respond to being told that their words are bigoted or intolerant. Someone who would gladly say that Hinduism is nonsense would probably recoil at being told they were being hateful or racist.

[the-air-man.livejournal.com]

It's the self-enforced ignorance that confounds me. It takes a lot of work to remain that ignorant.